Episode 20: Pleasure as an antidote to pelvic pain – with Brooke Dobó
What if pleasure could be the key to alleviating pelvic pain?
In this episode of Women of the Well, Sam Lindsay-German sits down with Brooke Dobó, one of Vera’s expert physiotherapists, to explore the transformative connection between pleasure, safety, and healing pelvic pain.
You’ll learn why working with your body and nervous system, rather than against it, can help you move toward a state of safety, vulnerability, and relief.
🎧 Listen now to discover:
🌿 How pleasure and pain can coexist – and why embracing body sensations is crucial for healing.
🌿 The connection between chronic pelvic pain and the nervous system – and why safety is foundational for experiencing pleasure.
🌿 Why diagnoses like "vaginismus" can often be unhelpful – and how reframing them leads to empowerment.
🌿 Practical ways to reconnect with your body through small, daily sensory practices that promote calm and pleasure.
🌿 Tips for creating intimacy and connection with yourself and your partner, including gentle and mindful approaches to touch and presence.
Whether you’re experiencing pelvic pain, struggling with intimacy, or just curious about how pleasure can become part of your healing journey – this episode offers hope and actionable tools to move forward.
And we have some exciting news to share!
Our live Heal Your Pelvic Pain course will begin on 17 February 2025.
This 9-week online program, led by Vera Wellness gynaecologists Dr Peta and Dr Thea and our women's health physiotherapist Paula Hindle, combines evidence-based practices to help you:
✨ Understand the root cause of your pain so you can take control of your healing journey.
✨ Calm and rewire your nervous system so you can shift from constant stress to feeling grounded and supported.
✨ Reclaim your relationship with your body and rediscover its capacity for joy, pleasure and connection.
We have a special Early Bird rate for podcast listeners until 1 February 2025 and places are limited.
Use the coupon code EARLYBIRD100 to claim your discount.
Resources recommended in this episode:
📖 Healing Pelvic Pain by Dr Peta Wright – A comprehensive guide on managing pelvic pain.
📖 Come As You Are by Dr Emily Nagoski
We would love to hear from you.
If you have any questions about you’d like us to answer on a future episode of the podcast, please email them to hello@verawellness.com.au or contact us on Instagram @verawellness.com.au.
Join our Podcast VIP Club:
To stay in the loop with every new episode of Women of the Well and gain first access to special resources and events – join our Podcast VIP Club here.
Episode transcript:
E20 - Pleasure as an antidote to pain – Interview with Brooke Dobó
[00:00:00] Sam: Welcome to another episode of Women of the Well. I am Sam Lindsay-German and today I have with me
[00:01:04] Brooke: Brooke Dobo
[00:01:05] Sam: Who is one of our amazing physios here at Vera, , it's really lovely to have Brooke here because today we're going to be talking about pleasure and particularly we're going to talk about pleasure and pelvic pain.
[00:01:20] I'm going to begin by saying that what's very interesting is that Brooke and I were just talking before we started and what day are you on today, Brooke?
[00:01:28] Brooke: Oh, I think I'm 26 or thereabouts.
[00:01:32] Sam: So Brooke's on day 26 of her cycle and I'm on day 2. And so we're both discussing that. We're not really in that pleasure state, we're pretty much more in the sleep state, which is probably good for the conversation that we're going to have because we can both relate to how our nervous systems are feeling at this time, which is good.
[00:01:53] Brooke: Yeah, I agree.
[00:01:54] Sam: So let's dive straight in. Tell me when
[00:01:57] you think about the subject of pleasure in [00:02:00] relation to pelvic pain, what are your immediate thoughts?
[00:02:05] Brooke: Well, I think that for someone who has or is experiencing pelvic pain, um,
[00:02:14] the idea or thought of pleasure. Is often impossible. Um, and I think that a lot of people think
[00:02:23] that, pleasure and pain can't exist together. whereas I think what we're finding through even just what the work that we do and the research that we have that, in fact, firstly, they can exist together, and You know, if we're treating pain, so pelvic pain, I think, you know, traditionally, if you're treating pain, you just aim to get rid of the pain. Whereas, you know, myself and the other physiotherapists here, we say, you know, we are pleasure based or pleasure focused in our approach to therapy, and that.
[00:03:00] is that in fact, we don't try and get rid of the pain. We actually go towards the pain because going towards the pain means going towards your body and your body sensations. And that is the only way you can experience pleasure. So going towards your body means going towards pleasure and the pain, and then often organically through all the things we'll just speak about today.
[00:03:26] But really it's. through the nervous system. Pain organicallygoes down. The pain signals sort of dial down and sometimes dissipate.
[00:03:38] Sam: So one of the things that we know is that when there is chronic pain, there tends to be a, correlation with women not being able to experience pleasure. and particularly, well, women don't want to have sex. I mean, I can see that that sounds like an obvious thing, but I feel like potentially what it [00:04:00] can do is lead to some confusion for us because we're just compounding an already very sensitive area with, I mean, so much pain and I can't even enjoy having sex with my husband and he really wants that and the pressure and, you know, All the other things that must go with that, which must be just exhausting.
[00:04:18] And so the whole thing becomes compounded, which can lead, I'm guessing, to a lot of frustration and maybe in some cases, some misdiagnosis, around what is actually happening rather than actually understanding how it is that we can support
[00:04:33] ourselves.
[00:04:34] So can you just explain Why is it that if we've got chronic pain that we struggle to experience pleasure?
[00:04:44] Brooke: Well, I think, and you have all, I think spoken on this before, but it really comes down to feeling safe within the body. And when you've experienced pain, especially if it's persistent or a chronic pain, it becomes hard to, trust,
[00:05:05] your body. And, you know, I think we were speaking about this just before, when it comes to sexuality, and especially when you're being intimate with another person, you have to be in your absolute, complete, vulnerable, it's a very vulnerable state.
[00:05:25] If you are completely in it and that can become impossible if your nervous system doesn't believe that it's safe. And I'm not saying you don't feel safe in a relationship or not consenting, of course,
[00:05:43] but your nervous system believes that. It's not safe and especially if there's been pain, so with intercourse, it's really hard to get to that spot.And so, you know, if we're talking about the nervous system, that is your regulated parasympathetic vagus nerve activated state.
[00:06:03] Yeah.
[00:06:04] Sam: Yeah.
[00:06:04] So, in these, um, situations, Maybe you can use an example of what it is that you see when women come in, how it can escalate into something that has created for them Yeah, you know some real struggles both in their relationship and personally.
[00:06:22] First of all, how might it manifest in the body? How might it look?
[00:06:26] And then you can talk about that word we don't want to talk about.
[00:06:29] Brooke: Yes, the word that we don't like, but I will say it. Because often that is, in inverted commas, the diagnosis that potentially has been referred to me for, to pelvic floor physiotherapy for, and that is, the diagnosis of vaginismus.
[00:06:49] And sorry. I really, we really don't like that term and it's just a, another classic sort of medicalpathologizing term.
[00:07:00] What it refers to is the pelvic floor muscles going into like a spasm or like a protection mode, in a certain circumstance. So it might be inserting a tampon, it might be having a medical exam, or it might be having.
[00:07:18] penetrative intercourse. Now here's the thing,Firstly, I don't like that term at all. So if someone comes in with that diagnosis, I sort ofsay that straight away
[00:07:29] for the reason that I don't believe that that condition in inverted commas is actually a disease state or diagnosis at all.
[00:07:39] I think that Our bodies are amazing and our pelvic floor muscles are incredible and they are innately wise and they will go into a protective mode for a very good reason.
[00:07:58] And so ] I believe, so that's part of it, is that pelvic floor muscle, muscle sort of protection. And I believe there's always, always a reason. that your body has done that. And I think that it's a very normal, functional, amazing thing that your body is doing.
[00:08:20] Sam: Protecting itself
[00:08:21] by saying, I'm not in a state where I can be vulnerable, where I feel that it's safe enough for me to open myself to
[00:08:30] Whatever it is. Absolutely.
[00:08:31] and when I think about that, it takes me back to when I, and I know we talked about this in the first podcast we did together, but it actually takes me right back to when I first tried to use tampons. And I remember it just being like there was a wall
[00:08:45] there, you know, I was trying to stick this piece of cardboard with a piece of cotton up my, you know, vagina, and everything was just clamped shut, you know, because.
[00:08:55] It didn't feel right to me. And I remember just having to completely actually override my system, which is, interesting because now when we're talking about it in this context, I can see that. Yeah, it was saying, no, don't
[00:09:09] stick that up here.
[00:09:10] Brooke: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. and I guess that sort of leads me to talk about how important it is to firstly teach young women and girls about their anatomy, which we did touch on last time. and. not that we need permission, but yeah, like you have permission to explore your own body, and learn about the muscles that are on the inside and how you can, control them.
[00:09:35] I mean, we will probably talk about that later in terms of what do we do about this. Um,
[00:09:39] Sam: it was interesting when I was, discussing this with Peta about what to go through with you. she was talking to me about what they used to do or one of the ways that they would treat, that word that I can't really even say, so I'm not going to. And,
[00:09:52] I mean, it just sounds archaic that the treatment for it. Would be if you want to go through what the actual treatment [00:10:00] used to be or is still, I'm not sure go for it because I actually found that quite shocking. It just felt invasive and made me angry for the way that women's bodies are
[00:10:10] treated at a time when they really need to receive safety, care, love and support.
[00:10:16] Brooke: Absolutely.
[00:10:18] absolutely. Yeah, so, I mean I think traditionally, dilator therapy is something, you know, if here's your diagnosis, here's your treatment. and so for
[00:10:29] those of you who don't know, dilators, uh, I mean, they come in lots of different textures and shapes and sizes, but essentially the whole premise and I actually really don't like the term dilator either because of what it's insinuating of like dilating the opening of the vagina or the vagina
[00:10:45] muscles. So yeah, traditionally, and honestly, this was the way I was taught, you know, when I was first taught about it, that we prescribe and back then, maybe 10 years ago, I was just handing out these awful, like they were pink plastic, kind of like the Bushka dolls they remind me of. and I actually saw a study on this quite recently.
[00:11:06] I think I found it last year that looked into treatment for the term, using dilator therapy and it was quite interesting and it actually made so much sense to me that the researchers they found, they did, it was a pretty massive cohort and they found that there was so much, disparity
[00:11:25] in the Between like, who found dilator therapy helpful and who
[00:11:29] didn't? And there was two quite distinct groups of those that, and the use, the words that they used were day 26, frustrated, and just really didn't help. And potentially made things worse 'cause you. but then the other group found it really empowering and they really did benefit from it.
[00:11:47] And what they, when they zoomed in and what they looked at is that those who, did not benefit. were sort of doing it because they had to, they were getting it over and done with, so [00:12:00] to say, um, some people were watching TV, like really distracting themselves, so not really connecting to what's going on and the other group they had been advised, like how it had been prescribed, was, you know, really make this like a mindful time, relaxing, um, and, um, or like actually exploring the pleasure in it and exploring especially that internal pleasure that is there.
[00:12:25] so that just makes so much sense to me
[00:12:27] Sam: well, it's talking about the difference between connection and not connection. So in the group that struggled, they were disconnected and therefore their nervous system responded to that. It was like still something foreign object trying to be inserted. Whereas in the second group, they were actually feeling connected with their
[00:12:46] bodies, connecting through touch, maybe through sound, I don't know, whatever they were doing. Actually, their body was able to relax and then allow and receive the benefit from it, which really just really leans into why
[00:13:04] and you can tell me, I'm imagining The way through this is working with the nervous system. Absolutely. is that your approach here?
[00:13:12] Brooke: absolutely.
[00:13:13] Yeah.
[00:13:14] So, I guess to, to circle back to your first question of how it manifests, yes, it's the tension that protection, which makes so much sense, but it's also, just a hyper.
[00:13:25] alertness of the nerve endings, even to touch. And that's a really, really common one that we see, especially around the urogenital tract in the vulva. It is highly innervated thousands of nerve endings, which means that it, they can easily become, sensitized and it's exactly the same deal. So if your nervous system is on hyper alert for whatever reason, chances are that wherever you've got thousands of nerve endings, they're going to be on hyper alert as well.
[00:13:57] And that manifests as it can [00:14:00] be like just irritated, burning, stinging, like around that area.
[00:14:04] so that's, yeah, something else to consider. Same deal. So yeah, going towards that and, you know, I guess, One of the first things I would say is, or ask, I know we've spoken about this many, many times is, uh, have
[00:14:18] you had a look? Have you had a look down there with a mirror? And, many people will say no. and then my next question is always like, why is that?
[00:14:28] Why is that? Oh, I had someone, a beautiful, beautiful girl this morning say, Oh, I'm just freaked out.And I said, yeah, okay. Let's be curious about that. Like, why? Why is that?
[00:14:42] Sam: But
[00:14:42] even that response, the thinking of that response to a part of your body, you can feel how shutting down that is. So immediately, and I understand it. We've been told not to look.
[00:14:54] Yes. I mean, I mean some of us will not have been, but I don't know. Growing, you know, going to a Catholic school, you're definitely told not to look. know, so you're told not to look, you're
[00:15:01] told not to explore. you're told that it's, you know, shameful to be doing those things. Yes. Which all actually bring us round into experiencing that shutdown, which is just gonna compound these issues.
[00:15:15] Brooke: Absolutely.
[00:15:16] It's so sad. And, I always have this,
[00:15:20] American voice in my head.
[00:15:22] It was a masterclass that I did maybe last year, on like healing pleasure with pain, uh, sorry, healing pain with pleasure. And she says, you gotta feel to heal. And I love that. It always rings in my head. And that's really the message, right? You have to, connect using whatever senses are available to you.
[00:15:44] So really, I guess we have our sight. We can look and we can touch. if we're going to connect and heal that area and, and get that sense of safety to the brain slash nervous system.
[00:15:57] Sam: And so would we, we wouldn't go straight there, would we [00:16:00] do things like start around different eras? Because I was thinking, you know, with this subject, pleasure doesn't just have to mean sex.
[00:16:08] No, no, no. And I feel like sometimes we We do dive there as a society, don't we?
[00:16:13] Brooke: Yeah, definitely.
[00:16:14] And which is quite a masculine viewpoint of pleasure because it's seen as, the end game.And of course, for women, it's very different. So do you want to talk about that a bit?
[00:16:25] Like, yeah, you know, what are your approaches? Because I was thinking even just, getting used to if we're in a heightened state with our nervous system, just, you know, gentle stroking touches, really just such a good place to be, because that can
[00:16:38] feel a lot. And that's nowhere near our most heightened areas.
[00:16:44] Brooke: yeah. So,
[00:16:45] Sam: So, yeah,
So what is that sort of approach?
[00:16:48] BrookeYeah, so it's obviously going to look different for everybody depending on where they're at in the context and the state of the nervous system. But definitely this is what I recommend and I think I spoke about this at Our Vera wisdom summit last year is that when it does seem all too much and impossible and overwhelming, my
[00:17:08] advice is to start really simple.
[00:17:12] So very simple sensualities in your body and actually just in your already existing daily routine.
[00:17:23] So we're not adding anything crazy, you know, I mean, yes, you could go and do something pleasurable, like get a massage or go to a day spa, but you know, those things cost money and take time and sometimes not that easy to do.So you've got to start,
[00:17:36] it's got to be achievable. So, you know, I say, what senses have we got available? We've got touch, we've got sight, we've got sound, we've got taste, we've got smell. And so we're using them But, I mean, we are, but sometimes we're
[00:17:55] not.
[00:17:56] Sam: So how can we do it? How can we find your daily pleasure? Practice or do you have one?
[00:18:03] Brooke: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, especially this week. Especially, as Lucy Peach would say, like I ambuilding the scaffolding to have a good bleed on the weekend. so, okay, I'll think of an example. Yesterday,
[00:18:20] I actually had a really nice, I had half an hour for lunch, and no one was around and I'm such an extrovert and I'm like, oh, no one to chat to.
[00:18:28] So I went over to the kitchen here at Vera, uh, heated up my lunch and I on purpose did not pick up my phone. I'm like, I'm going to sit here.
[00:18:36] And I'm going to eat this delicious food that I made, mindfully. And I'm really going to feel the textures and feel the flavors in my mouth. And I think eating is a really nice place to start because we all eat.
[00:18:51] And that's one we're not very good at.
[00:18:54] Sam: good
[00:18:54] Brooke: I think eating is a good one to
start with because Technically when we're eating, we should be in our
[00:19:03] Brooke: parasympathetic nervous system state. So we should be sort of stimulating that vagus nerve through, like eating and the gastrocolic reflex and that
[00:19:12] Sam: digestion.
[00:19:13] Yeah. Do you want to just talk about that?
[00:19:15] So that just means that we should be relaxed before we eat?
[00:19:20] BrookeYes. Rather than,um, rushingat the last minute in grabbing something from the fridge, stuffing it into our mouth before we then jump back into the car to drive somewhere else.
[00:19:31] So actually feeling calm, centered, relaxed, so that the body, and then if we do that, The body is more likely to be, well, it will digest because it's producing the correct acids to help us digest the food,
[00:19:49] which it's not doing if we're in stress.
[00:19:50] Brooke: Mm-hmm .
[00:19:51] Sam: So many
[00:19:51] people
[00:19:52] Brooke: eating
[00:19:53] Yeah. Yeah. Eating at the desk,
[00:19:55] working through,
[00:19:57] Sam: yeah.
[00:19:58] Brooke: Multitasking. Mums [00:20:00] like eating on the run.
[00:20:01] Sam: Like sorting out little ones. Yeah,Well, I even think, you know, the stress about what
[00:20:05] it is that we're eating, I often contemplate this, like half the stress can be worrying about whether I've made the right food choice.
[00:20:12] Many people have that, you know, like where they're actually eating it questioning, Oh, this is not what I should be eating, but I'm going to anyway, ] rather than just thinking I'm going to enjoy the luxury
[00:20:22] Brooke: of being eating. Yes I must mention I ate two chocolates after my lunch yesterday So that's where all the chocolates went guys, sorry.
[00:20:33] Sam: And did you savor them in your
[00:20:34] Brooke: Savoured them. Very, very much. And it was, yeah, it was
[00:20:40] Sam: amazing food.
[00:20:41] Brooke: is a good place to start if you have no, no idea where to start. but yeah, like the sky is the limit. I always will preach about, listening to Dr Emily Nagoski, which I know has been mentioned before.
[00:20:53] she wrote come as you are, and she actually has a podcast too called, I think it's actually called Come As You Are. Her very first episode, I highly recommend it is called pleasure is the
[00:21:06] measure. Yes. And she, and this is kind of where I got this idea to often, give people a challenge. I call it the pleasure challenge. And that is to find the most mundane things in your life, but in the day, but find the pleasure in it.
[00:21:23] And so when I first started doing this, um, last year, when I was sort of researching for that talk that I did,
[00:21:28] and I still do this now, I've, it's sort of a habit that I do whenever I take the rubbish out or the compost out, you remember this one, um, I still do this, I still make it, I love doing it now because it's a time that I used to like dread it and put it off and it's just a task and annoying.
[00:21:46] but now I. I don't wear my shoes and I put my feet in the grass and this is even I think, especially when I'm feeling a bit antsy.
[00:21:54] and yeah, I, it is mindfulness. I know. Um, listen to the birds and watch the sky, [00:22:00] but it's going one further. It's not just mindfulness, like, um, Dr. Nagelski
[00:22:04] will say it's using any and all of your senses to find
[00:22:09] Sam: the pleasure in it and what feels good.
[00:22:11] And being aware of all the senses that you're experiencing, like you said, feeling the sensations of the grass under your feet or even the mud, or whatever it is that you feel.
[00:22:20] And the sensation of stones, you know, I often think this walking across stones is that perfect combination of pain, pleasure. It's weird, isn't it?
[00:22:31] Because if you go, You can actually sort of feel it and it feels quite strong and intense. And you could say pain,
[00:22:39] Brooke: but you can ] also say
[00:22:40] Sam: it also feels good.
[00:22:41] Brooke: Yeah, yeah. And that's
[00:22:43] Sam: And that's that kind of
[00:22:44] exploring those, how my body is responding.
[00:22:47] And I often think about this because I see so many people, particularly in Australia, walking around bare feet,
[00:22:53] and I'm not as good as doing that because I didn't grow up doing that. But I've watched some people and I think, do they not feel things? But I think that it's that they experience the sensations differently.
[00:23:02] And, it is really interesting.
[00:23:04] Yeah, so these are, these are really good places to start on this journey of How is it that I can get back to trusting that my body has the capacity
[00:23:15] to experience pleasure? Because I'm imagining for some of these women
[00:23:20] Brooke: They don't feel that that's possible
[00:23:22] nope, nope I had Um, and I was talking to someone recently who we were having a bit of a laugh because we were talking about the state of dissociation and how, and we recognized, she very well recognized that she's been in a state of dissociation, after, you know, a big journey, like surgeries and hormonal treatments and, and she's very high achieving,
[00:23:45] amazing working, studying, and I said, okay, um, It's time to, come back to your body.And we had a giggle cause she's like,
[00:23:53] Sam: no, but I love ] my
[00:23:54] Brooke: dissociation
[00:23:56] Brooke: because, and this is
[00:23:58] when we like, yeah, dissociation [00:24:00] is amazing. And it is a coping, amazing functional coping strategy that our nervous system does. But.
[00:24:08] Sam: It's not sustainable.So if we, um, if we have a habit of disassociating, does that mean that we might disassociate during sex anyway or during pleasure?
[00:24:18] So we would therefore kind of turn off and just that's that. I'll just let it happen.And I'm just letting it happen to me. I'm consenting, but I'm saying just do what you need to do and not actually allowing the
[00:24:32] body to feel. In fact, trying to move it away from that as much as possible. And do you see that doing that type of thing would compound, how does the nervous system generally respond to that?
[00:24:44] So particularly if we think about someone who is, you know, Has a form of trauma and is trying to, learn how they can get back
in touch with their body and
[00:24:55] cope with the way that their nervous system is, on that high alert. What does it do for us if we're disassociating and just, I don't know,
[00:25:03] Brooke: push it through as it were?Yeah. I mean,
[00:25:07] like I said, it certainly is helpful in circumstances, but I just don't think it's sustainable because what will tend to happen is that if there isany,
[00:25:19] Sam: niggle or pain or sensation in the body
[00:25:22] Brooke: And it's, you're aware of it, but you're like, Oh yeah, whatever, like, let's just do the thing. And, well, for whatever reason, but if you're really not listening to your body and responding to it accordingly in, in terms of really what it needs, that little niggle willget you get louder and louder and eventually start screaming at you.
[00:25:47] I often use the analogy. you might've heard me say this one before Glennon Doyle. I love her. She says, our body is a palace [00:26:00] and it's got beautiful grand ballrooms, um, you know, where we can dance and eat amazing food and wonderful rooms to explore, but it also has dungeons and a cinema playing like a scary thriller, horror, horror film, and then should say dissociation is hanging
[00:26:18] out in the attic because we'retoo afraid to go to the scary parts.
[00:26:22] But if we only just hang out in the attic, we're going to miss all the beautiful stuff too.
[00:26:29] So I like to explain that, to people. to say hey like you can go on and sort of ignore the signals or try and and this is what we're taught right when it's come when it comes
[00:26:41] to pain you go see a doctor oh you've got pain here's the pill like let's get rid of that like rather than Um, we're not taught, I think, to say, Hey, why is that
[00:26:52] there?
[00:26:53] It's telling me something. It's not necessarily telling
[00:26:56] ...me that there's something like pathologically wrong, like, you know, like actual disease, which is often the case with chronic pain, right. But it might be telling us that it's sensitive ramped up for a reason. So like myself, for example, as you know, I get migraines. Sometimes lower back pain as well. Like I think we all sort of have our thing that we get, hey.
[00:27:21] And it's taken me a while. You've certainly helped me with this, but I now can realize and appreciate - as you know, that's hard to say. It's been hard to say. I can say it now, that when I do get a migraine, I now go inwards. And I go towards it rather than like, "Oh, this is so debilitating. Why me? I'm out for three days." I go, okay, there it is. I'm listening. What does this mean?
[00:27:50] Sam: Yeah.
[00:27:51] Brooke: And I always know, I'm like, yeah, okay. It's, and it's usually not just one thing.
[00:27:57] It's, I mean, alcohol is a [00:28:00] big thing. I definitely don't drink as much now.
[00:28:01] And a touch of it, haven't had a migraine in a while.
[00:28:03] Um, yeah. It's sleep. There's always a hormonal component and stress. They're sort of like the main ones. And so I go, yeah, okay. Yeah, I am out of balance a little bit. And my body is reminding me of that. It's a, just a, a reminder. And so I have learnt, and this is really, I guess, what we
[00:28:23] I try and coach people now to, when things do pop up, show up in the body, whatever it is, what, that's your thing. It's like, okay, yeah, I know what that is. And I know why it's there. I saw someone else beautiful this morning who owns her own business and she's really amazing and highly successful. And she's like, "Gosh, my pelvic pain had gone, like everything we did worked. And then I had like two crazy stressful days and I had to travel around Australia." And it came back, but she could identify straight away. She's like, "It's not something bad in my body. I just know that it's related to that."
[00:29:01] Sam: Yeah. So what we're trying to say here is I guess that our body has an early warning system and sometimes that early warning system is on higher alert because we might have childhood trauma, we might have other things that have occurred within our lives and sometimes that's why it's become compounded. From there, once we get to a place where we can identify what's occurred, it's then about looking at how is some of my lifestyle potentially adding to...
Brooke: System dysregulation.
[00:29:37] Yes. And also, I just feel like it often comes down to what are you doing that you enjoy...
Sam: That's such a good word. I'm really glad you said that because that's such a good place to go because I think it's very hard for women to say what they enjoy. I just don't know if we spend enough time sitting and going, "What in my life do I enjoy?"
[00:30:02] Brooke: What in my life do I...
Sam: Endure?
Brooke: Yes.
Sam: And, and some things we have to endure. I mean, let's be honest, there are certain things we have to do. The school run in the morning, you have to do it. There are ways you can make it more enjoyable, but generally there'll be something for you that you've got to do. It's a function of life and it has to happen. But yes, what are the things that really...
[00:30:23] Brooke: Make you feel...
Sam: That's it.
Brooke: Yes, the yes.
Sam: Yes. The yes. And that's a good practice. Are these good practices to do? Sort of start to explore journaling around what today was joyful?
[00:30:40] Yeah, that's a, yeah, that's a beautiful practice. Absolutely. Yeah. Yep. And do you know what? Even the school run, sit in the car. Actually, I saw this amazing reel the other day and it's like, Yeah.
[00:30:51] That blissful feeling when you close the door and you walk around the back and you just feel the wind in your hair. That counts, that counts, right? And then when you sit in the car, hopefully without screaming children, but, ah, really sit, feel the support of the chair, put your hands on the wheel. Um, you know, and again, yes, it's, that's mindfulness, which we all know is amazing for our nervous systems, but go one further and go, what actually feels good in this chaotic moment? There's always going to be something that you can hone in on that feels good.
[00:31:25] Yeah, that's so interesting, which is why we can really start to help ourselves by maybe thinking about the texture of the clothes that we're wearing. Yes. I had this thing where yesterday I was driving somewhere with my daughter, it was actually Ikea. And I'm not going to say any of these things that good for my nervous system, because my daughter had put on some perfume before we got into the car. And I don't enjoy the smell of artificial perfumes.
[00:32:00] And I felt myself just prickle, it was so hard for me to relax from that smell. Smell is a big thing for me. I really noticed it and just thought this is so hard. I don't want to be cross with her because she's wearing perfume, but I can feel that this goes against everything in my body. And I'm noticing that. So it just when you say that, it makes me think being able to think about what are the smells that I'm experiencing?
What are the textures that I'm feeling on my clothes because you know itchy labels in knickers I mean just those tiny little things can be so aggravating. Whereas you know when you're wearing something that just feels so nice when you touch it. And that really can change the way that nervous system responds.
[00:32:40] It does. And I believe this because I've practiced it myself and seen others and because Dr. Nki recommended it and believes in it, and I believe it that it rewires the way you perceive the world and I've seen this a lot recently, right? Like where people just expect the next bad thing to happen, you know? With some clients, you know, "Oh, we just expect that tomorrow I'm going to need to get some anger out," but it's like, but you might actually be okay if you thought you could be okay.
[00:33:21] Yeah, I think it's very, I understand exactly. I mean, it's quite easy as well to get into the things are going well, therefore they must go bad. And I feel that comes when we have struggled, for a number of years and we've had an accumulation of stress, nervous system dysregulation, trauma, there can be a tendency to think when things go well, is this going to stop? And actually I can even feel that sensation of expecting something bad to happen for the pain to come back, for whatever it is that you're experiencing to reoccur. That in itself is enough to put that nervous system on high alert.
[00:34:00] Yeah. Manifest it for ourselves. And I don't mean that in a "you're making yourself sick," but we're looking for it so hard because we've been wired to do that, right? And that's that distrust in our bodies that we need to turn around and rewire, and trust and believe that we're entitled to feel okay.
That wellness is a natural state. I mean, that's the big thing to actually be able to say, I'm allowed to be well. My body is able to experience pleasure consistently, rather than it being the other way around where pleasure is the rarity, pain is the more consistent.
[00:34:50] So in order to make this, I mean, I know, I just want to say that one of the reasons we're doing this podcast is because you are creating a course that women will be able to do soon, around pelvic pain, where you're going to explore some of these concepts in a much deeper way. Could you give us a snippet of, you know, really, what are the main things that we can do in order to get to a place where we might be able to experience vulnerability, safety, potentially pleasure?
[00:35:17] Brooke: Yeah. Awaken presence. Do you know what Sam? That's my answer Sam. That's my answer.
Brooke: It's being present. That, yeah, that is actually my answer is being able to switch off the to do list. Sam: You are where you're meant to be, what you should be doing. You know, you switch off all of that.
Sam: Can we just pause on that? I was actually thinking about this yesterday. Turning off the to do list. That is such a rarity for women, isn't it?
[00:35:48] but I actually lay in bed last night. I've been making a point of going to bed early and I actually pretended that I didn't have to get up this morning to do sadhana, even [00:36:00] though I love it. And that I didn't have to come in and do this podcast today, even though I'm very happy to be here with you. I basically just thought, said to myself, none of those things need to happen tomorrow. You have nothing that you need to do. And I kidded myself. It was a really interesting practice. Then I sat and I watched my body kind of... I don't know, soften a bit in the bed. I really enjoy doing that.
Sam: Just let everything go.
Brooke: Yeah.
Sam: So beautiful. I mean, it's hard because you've got to really sort of believe yourself. And then when my alarm went, I did think, "Oh no, I thought I didn't have to." When do we actually get to do that?
[00:36:43] Brooke: Turn off? Tell me how you help the patients do that.
Sam: I mean, there are probably a million and one ways to do it really, but it's embodiment practices, really overarching all the things that are underneath that it's practices. And it obviously, again, will be different for everybody, but it's practices that, yeah, help you to switch off the brain into like all the...
[00:37:16] Brooke: Connect the brain instead of thinking about all the things...
Sam: Connected to the sensations of the body. And really that's what we're aiming to do. Very practical things that I think of is, when you're doing the washing up, fully do the washing up. That means that as you're washing up the dishes, you pick up a dish, you feel the sensation of the dish in your hand, the sensation of the soap suds around the dish.
[00:37:42] The warmth of the water, maybe the trickling of the water down your wrist and onto your arm, and then you pick up the cloth or the brush, whatever it is that you use. And you feel the texture of that. And you watch as you move your hand in a circular motion and you're just entirely present with the act of doing just that rather than thinking, "Gosh, what am I going to get my mother-in-law for her birthday present?"
[00:38:12] Brooke: Absolutely.
Sam: And one of the tricks we do for that is to do a thing where we light a candle next to the sink. So you create an altar next to your sink so that when you're doing the washing up, you light the candle as a mindful practice and it's meant to sort of bring that harmony into the home where you can be completely present and whilst the candle's lit no one can come and disturb...
Brooke: Yes, I love that. I love that. Actually using the candle is such a good one.
[00:38:43] Like, yeah, I, I mean, you taught me that first thing in the morning, waking up with a small baby that loved to wake up at 4 a. m., light a candle, put in some gentle music, and it actually then became my favorite part of the day. or I say to many people, you know, have a candle lit shower. A lot of people don't have a bath and they want a bath and like, just have a candle lit shower.
[00:39:06] And that's it. Hey, it's the reminder to keep it intentional.
Sam: And same deal, right? Feel the warmth. And to create slight ritual around it. Yes, you know, I would often think in a shower, um, one of my favorite things to do in a shower is to grab some lavender or some eucalyptus leaves if you happen to have them or you see them as you're walking around or anything that has those types of smells or scents in the leaves that you enjoy, make a bunch of it and place it under the shower head. So as you're showering, it releases some of those smells and creates this aromatherapy, natural aromatherapy.
[00:39:42] It's just finding little things that bring you to a state of presence and allow you to experience a state of pleasure, the smells. So one of the things I would say about candles is be really mindful of your candles. Like we like those candles that smell. But they have lots of things in them that we potentially shouldn't be smelling and can actually not be great for our system, which we'll talk about some other point, but those kind of endocrine disruptors are not things that we want.
[00:40:22] So find some really good, naturally scented candles that are not going to be harmful to you or have no scent if you don't enjoy those scents. And yeah, even diffusing, um, as you go through doing your washing up, even diffusing some essential oils the scent of orange is incredibly uplifting. Very simple smells, you know, orange uplifting, lavender relaxing, you know, peppermint really good if you're struggling with headaches and things like that.
[00:40:54] Brooke: Yes, and here's the thing, right? These little strategies are so simple, isn't it? They're so simple, and at the end of the day, you have a choice, right? You have a choice to do these simple things. But I guess this is where a lot of people feel stuck, isn't it?
Brooke, you've given me a list of, you know, 10 things to do. It's too many things. I haven't done any of it. So I've started to say, okay, one, one thing, make a choice. Of your goals list what is the most important? What's your priority? What's most meaningful to you right now? And what's one step, one little thing that you can do to help with that?
[00:41:31] Sam: I love that. It's funny. I often, I went through a phase, I've stopped doing it and actually now it's made me think of it. You saying that I went through this phase of brushing my hair every day. That sounds crazy, but I've got a lot of hair and to be honest, it's quite easy not to brush it every day cause it hurts sometimes. But I found that I got this really nice brush. And I found that it was so delicious to brush my hair each evening before I went to sleep.
[00:42:00] So I'd brush it, and then I would plait it, and then I would go to bed. If you're a hairdresser and I'm doing it all wrong, I'm really sorry. But, it was such a good presence and pleasure experience, the sensation of brushing one's scalp.
Brooke: Love.
Sam: And feeling that. Brushing hair is a very nice thing to experience. So it is just one thing.
Brooke: Yep.
Sam: It could just be that you brush your hair. It could be that you do the washing up mindfully.
[00:42:25] Brooke: Mm hmm. That would be one of your things. Oh, you just made me think about, so one little, In Inverticum, a strategy that I give like couples when they're, especially if they're struggling, you know, the first thing you talked about with intimacy and sex just seems too scary and painful, is the three minute game. So you have a couple...
[00:42:48] and, , first partner will say to the other, , all right, we've got three minutes. Have you heard of this one? Oh, I love this one. It's really good. And you say, this is what I would like to do to you or
[00:43:00] Sam: for you.
[00:43:01] Brooke: Yes. It sounds a bit sexy,
[00:43:03] Sam: like, yeah. I'm like, oh, this sounds good. Yeah.
[00:43:07] Brooke: And you've got three minutes, right? And then. The, the second person will respond to, they'll either say, Oh yeah, I like the sound of that. Or they'll be like, Hmm, yeah, I can see how you'd like to do that to me, but I think I prefer this. It's obviously has to
[00:43:19] be consensual both ways. But what I really like about it and, and you made me think of it because I had a couple that came back with, , I got him to play with my hair and it was so lovely
[00:43:30] And it was such a lovely way to connect. And this is what we forget. Like we forget like soft touch and back tickles and playing with your hair.
Sam: Just a gentle foot rub.
Brooke: Yes. Oh, absolutely.
Sam: Having your feet touched. Brooke: Yes, yeah, that's right. And that's why I love that three minute thing, because it's really defined. It's not like, oh, I went for a minute and you're like, oh, I'd like that to be a bit longer or, or when's this going to end? Or is this going to lead to anything else.
[00:44:02] So for a lot of females in particular, who've had pain with intercourse, they will tense up in their body if there's any form of physical contact together, but with this, it's really clear. It's like, no, no, it's just the three minutes. And then we swap over and what you want to do and what we want to do. But that's it. It's not going to lead to anything. So what we're doing is creating familiarity again, and then we're also creating that sense of safety because we know that there's a time constraint.
[00:44:34] Then we know that it's our choice if we choose to say, it's okay if you do that a bit more.
Sam: He's wonderfully freeing and I love that because I feel like one of the things I often encourage people to do is just to sit opposite each other and practice looking into each other's eyes just for three minutes, and breathing. I mean, and to do that with just underwear on is it's a really good practice, so no touching, just eye to eye.
[00:45:11] And it's a really good practice to help us with body image. So sometimes we're vulnerable about being naked. And so it can help us to just sit and just be opposite someone and be held in that way with eyes.
Brooke: Yes.
Sam: Nothing else. And then just that breathing together, trying to connect your breath so that your chest both rise at the same time.
[00:45:35] Brooke: Absolutely. Breathing. You'll be so proud of me because we did this, me and my husband, and he was going away for work for a week. And it's almost like that expectation, you know, before you go, let's get it on. But I actually suggested that, and do you know what I love? A little side story. Have you heard of the five erotic blueprints?
[00:46:03] Oh, love this side note. Yeah. I love this. It's kind of like, you know, the five love languages. I call it the five sex languages. It's, but it's not that it's called the erotic blueprints. Jaiya is her name. I think she features on the show by Gwyneth Paltrow called Goop on Netflix. Yeah. So she's highly renowned, um, like sexologist or sex educator from the States. And she came up with this blueprint.
[00:46:42] So they are, uh, what are they? They're sexual, which is kind of like what you would deem traditionally, what is sexual in our culture, um, as a language, they're sensual, so using all the senses, you know, the smells and the touch and the lighting, da da da. Then there is kinky. So kink is defined as anything you think is taboo is your kink. Then there is energetic, so that's kind of like that eye gazing and that breathing together and that tantric, I guess more tantric type.
[00:47:13] Yeah. And then the fifth one is called shapeshifter, which means you are open to anything and lo and behold. Jolt is a shapeshifter. So I'm like, jackpot, he's open to anything. So I was like, all right, here we go. I'm like, we're not going to do that. Can we eye gaze? And we did eye gazing for about five minutes. We actually had our hands on each other's heart. When he left on his work trip, I felt so connected to him more than ever. And the last kiss was like so passionate.
[00:47:57] Sam: That's right. Well, I mean, just even in itself, like you're saying, it's the connection that we get from actually sitting and being present with another. The way that if you can maintain eye contact is a demonstration that your nervous system is regulated because it's not darting around. So therefore you're regulating each other by doing it. And then with having your hand on each other's heart, then that's just even a deeper sense of connection.
[00:48:29] And of course, if you could do that with your partner knowing it doesn't have to lead to anything. So it has a time limit, but of course, if either of you decide or you both decide together that you want it to, then it can, it's a really good, gentle way to reintroduce that sense of intimacy.
[00:49:00] Brooke: And yet actually just to allow for three minutes a day for this kind of thing, massive, huge. And this is what I often say it is the smallest steps, the smallest things that make the most profound difference.
Sam: That feels like a really good conversation. And I think just to round it up, if you can just, you know, speak on that. I'm guessing what we're saying in all of this is that the key to healing is through these practices that help us to be able to find safety, vulnerability, to be able to find ways in which we can gently experience pleasure rather than feeling that we have to or that there's something wrong with us.
[00:49:47] Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. And breaking down, if someone has told us there's something wrong with us, like giving us a diagnosis, Oh, there's something I have.
[00:49:58] Dysfunction, breaking that down, because it's seldom true. And then with that, learning to trust the sensations in your body. It's such a big thing. I just trust, trust you as an amazing human being who knows exactly what you need but may have just forgotten through the programming.
Sam: Absolutely. Yeah. You nailed it. So we can look forward to learning more about this on the course that you're going to be running. What's the course going to be called?
Brooke: I actually don't know.
Sam: Maybe it's called Healing Pelvic Pain. Yeah, so when that course comes out, people can expect to learn more about this from you. Um, and also from the lovely Paula as well.
[00:50:45] Brooke: And, I'm going to be having a session with Paula talking about the nervous system as well, which will be great.
Sam: Amazing, yes. Well, I hope that we've done this topic justice today, but please, as always, um, you can reach out to us. Email us hello at Vera.com.au, um, or reach out to us on the socials on the Instagram page.
[00:51:07] Yeah, absolutely. And we would love to hear from you with any questions that you have relating to this subject or any of the other topics that we cover or any questions that you might have that you would like Brooke to come on and talk about around the subject of women's pelvises? Pelvis eye?
Brooke: Anything that you feel that you'd like her to talk about.
Sam: My pleasure.
Brooke: Thank you so much for your time today,
Brooke. My pleasure.
===
DISCLAIMER:
This podcast is for information and educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
